Israel's E1 development moves forward, additional sanctions, and how the diaspora Jewish community is, and should, react

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Transcript:

Maytal Kowalski  

Hi there, Jon.

Jon Allen

Good morning. Nice to see. How are you? I'm good, and I'm in your hometown in Vancouver.

Maytal Kowalski

Yes, enjoying the rain.

Jon Allen 

Well, you know,

Maytal Kowalski

we brought it. We brought it just for you. Thanks so much. Enjoy, enjoy. So on much more important matters than than the weather, I think we're going to spend today mainly talking about not only the West Bank, but very very specifically what is happening with the E1 development. And I think for folks who may be seeing the news and seeing that the West Bank has been in the news quite a bit lately. There's two things kind of that are happening right now that are obviously interconnected. The first is the development of E1, which we'll get into in a second, and and kind of what that is, what that means, what the implications are. Of course, the second being the the rise, which we keep talking about and keeps continuing to rise of settler violence as we approach the Israeli elections in about a month and a half's time, and kind of you know Netanyahu a little bit trying to not a little bit probably more than more than a little bit trying to kind of set that region on on fire figuratively and literally, so it's it's it is really in the news, and a lot is happening there. Probably a lot of it by design to to create some of this chaos and wreak havoc. And so let's start with. I'd love to ask you a little bit about E1 and why it's back in the news. If you want to talk, maybe a little bit about like what it is to begin with, what the e1 development is, and then what's happening now. I think maybe maybe let's start there.

Jon Allen

Yeah, well, e1 is is really a housing development project. It's it's houses for settlers,. Not we're not talking about the crazy hilltop 1000 militant settlers. We're talking about people who want to move into the West Bank because it's economically, for them, it's it's rather cheap, and they can get very nice homes, and and they don't have a problem with contributing to the annexation, so this is a development of 1000s of homes in an area that has been controversial for over a decade. e1, if built, if all these homes were built, would effectively divide the north and the south of the West Bank, making it very difficult for Palestinians to move from Bethlehem to the north, to cities, to visit their families, to conduct business, etc. etc. Let's let's just remember it's already very difficult for Palestinians to move around the West Bank. There are blockades and checkpoints and berms everywhere. I've just spoken to people that have returned from Israel on a on a tour, and the number of diversions they had to do ridiculous diversions that seemed only established in order to cause problems were immense. So, but as I say, e1 would would divide the West Bank for a decade, there have been threats to build these homes, establish this community, and basically, as a result of international pressure, it's never happened. Pressure not only from Western countries like Canada and UK and France, but also the Americans, and even under the first Trump administration, this was this did not go ahead. It certainly didn't go ahead under Biden, but now we're in a new situation with Netanyahu in control and his minister responsible for the West Bank, Bezalel Smotrich advocating annexation of the complete West Bank to the Jordan Valley and in some cases beyond. So you have a minister who is in support of this, a Trump administration that has not said much about it and not prohibited it, and and as you indicated, a prime minister who is allowing it to proceed. So it's not causing a huge amount of discussion amongst Israelis. Although we have to point out there is a case that's gone to the Supreme Court of Israel in an effort to stop. This and the the case is being heard. There's been no decision, but in the meantime, the government seems to be proceeding with doing all the necessary steps in terms of permits, etc. to begin building these homes.

Maytal Kowalski

Yeah, and and I think you know two two things to to mention there to pick up on or to elaborate. I think a little bit on what you said. Definitely the movement around the West Bank that's so restrictive, with as you mentioned, kind of the multiple checkpoints and more and more checkpoints being erected. The thing with E1 is that not only does it make it difficult, as you said, to move between major hubs in the Palestinian territories, but as soon as you break off contiguity of those territories, it also becomes much harder to govern that area, right? So there's a real strategy here by the Israeli government to ensure that construction plays a role not only in making you know an everyday civilian's life difficult, but actually makes it so that when we talk when we talk about what the reality of a two-state solution would be, and you know, viable Palestinian leadership, it's very hard to have viable leadership when you don't have contiguous territory. So you know, that is that is definitely something that you know people here, whatever it is, just over 1,200 houses, or whatever they're working to develop. Oh, that's small. That's this. That's whatever. There's a real strategy behind it, and we would be wise to kind of acknowledge just the repercussions and the damage that it that it would cause. I think the second thing is you brought up the court case right now that's happening, and it's really important also I think to recognize how much of the attempted judicial coup, which is still continuing to this day, is linked to the occupation? Because we have a government, we have a court saying construction tenders and development cannot continue while this case is being heard, and then you have a government saying we don't really care what you say, court, and just just going ahead with it anyway. So so it is a level of just lawlessness and blatant disregard, you know, to to to put this forward. And I think I want to talk about as a result. I kind of want to talk about. I want to ask you about Canada's response because Canada's had two different responses to it, and then I would say, you know, not to not to lead the conversation too much or bias the conversation too much, but I don't know that that Canada or other countries are realizing or acting in a way that shows just how much they realize how detrimental this move is going to be. I'm I'm curious what you think about that.

Jon Allen

Well, just on your last point, I think they know. Yeah, I do think governments understand, and in their statements, including Canada's when they joined with a number of other countries, and then in their subsequent statement, made it quite clear. As has the prime minister when he recognized the state of Israel, that really his main state of Palestine. Excuse me. Yeah, his main his main concern was the threat to the two-state solution. I mean, that's really what is behind. They they they honestly believe, as do we and and many others, that the two-state solution, when it comes, is the only way forward, and that they see and understand this because they've seen the maps and they know the intentions. They understand that this is the greatest threat so far to the two-state solution for the reasons that you indicated. I mean, not only is there the West Bank and Gaza in terms of governance, you got already got a problem there and an issue that has to be dealt with, and there are solutions. But you're then going to have, as you say, and and and and realistically, realistically, in any two-state solution, we have always understood that there will be certain areas, what we call the major settlement blocks, that are going to stay within Israel, and that there will be a swap. But when you put settlements like this in e1, which is not part of that, or when you put the the new 1000 settlements that have been constructed by the hilltop settlers in place, you are adding to the problem of of of eventually having to walk this stuff back in order to have that two-state solution, so yes, the government recognizes it. The other governments recognize it. They are threatening to impose sanctions on the West Bank, on on on individuals, on organizations, and on businesses. That operate and certainly those that would be operating the construction of these houses, but they haven't done it yet. They've threatened it. Interestingly, the foreign minister has pushed back hard and is threatening retaliation if the UK government were to go ahead, as they've said they they will, so this is this is a major fight. Of course, we, as you indicated, we've got six weeks till elections, and I'm not. It's not clear what is going to happen either vis-a-vis the court, the construction or the sanctions between now and those elections-it's-it's a very complicated time, and it it complicates the decisions by governments as to what they're going to do and when.

Maytal Kowalski

Yeah, and and to add to that too, I think that probably there is some consideration that we've got all the Jewish High Holidays coming up, and how the optics of certain announcements and when they're made versus when the elections are. So, you know, and then of of course commemorating the the horrific horrific day of October 7, which will come right after this year's High Holidays, given the dates that they fall on this year. So there's a lot going on, as you said. So Canada made a statement condemning the development. They also put out a warning, as you mentioned, to Canadian businesses, any Canadian business thinking of doing business with with settlements in in the West Bank. Is that going to? Is that? Do you think that that does that make a difference in the West Bank? Do we need more countries than just Canada putting out putting out statements like that? What what is Canada's role when they when they specifically put out a warning like that to Canadian businesses?

Jon Allen

Yeah, I I think frankly I I don't know the answer to the question, but I highly doubt that there are Canadian companies involved. And if they are involved, then I think the threat is real, and they would give second thought. But I don't think there are Canadian companies. I don't know which companies are involved. I don't know whether they're Israeli, whether they're American, whether you know there's some British and other involvement, but yes, I think it's a real threat if it were to come in. You know, no no entrepreneur wants sanctions imposed and wants their name splashed all over the international press, and you know there's there's consequences, so it's important. But you're right to suggest this is something that should be done concurrently with other Western countries that have indicated that they are thinking about this: France, Australia, the UK, and others, undoubtedly, you know, Spain and Ireland, Belgium would would jump in if the EU were to do this as a as a whole. England, of course, not being a part of the EU, can do this individually, and is suggesting they will.

Maytal Kowalski

So let's talk about that. The UK is is saying that they're gonna do that. They're they're heavily heavily implying that this is gonna happen. One of the I think one of the things if we shift a little bit maybe from the policy space to the community space, which I think we always try to give equal time to both, a good indication of how, to your point, if Canada moves along with something like this and other allies as well, is how the you know the Jewish communal organizations will react, the kind of legacy institutions will react. We saw in the UK that there is condemnation for this move by by by many of the the UK institutions, the Board of Deputies of British Jews, for example, have put out statements against this proposed move from the UK government. They say that it will harm British Jews. How do we - And it's there is no answer to this. I know that there is not. I know that I'm putting us both on the spot by trying to answer this, but there is a rise. There there is undoubtedly globally a rise in anti-Semitism. We've seen some horrific attacks in in the UK specifically. How do we navigate that it is at once true that this is action that international governments and allies of Israel have to take, and that there is a very real fear of anti-Semitism? What do you think? What do you make of the organizations that make make these make these statements, and how do we navigate it?

Jon Allen

Well, as you say, it's it's incredibly complicated. What Israel is doing, the occupation illegal at international law, the settlements illegal at international law, the violation of Palestinian rights by the hilltop settlers, and E1, all of that is illegal and should be criticized. And in this case, governments, as we said, are of the view that if this latest development should go ahead, it could really threaten the future of the two states, and therefore, you know the rights of Palestinians going forward. And to be honest, I think they they believe as we do, threatening the security and the safety of Israelis going forward, because I think we and they understand that you're not going to be able to subject occupation to 5.2 million Palestinians forever, and and we know what the results are. So you you've got this very complicated situation, and and essentially what the the rabbi who the chief rabbi who met with the foreign minister of the UK Miliband said was don't do this. We condemn hilltop settler violence. We condemn that. So that's good. They they they recognize there's a problem and they're not afraid of of acknowledging it. But they they then go on to say that if you put sanctions on Israel, you're going to cause anti-Semitism, more anti-Semitism in the UK, and therefore we're connecting the two. And you shouldn't do that. You could go the other way on that argument and say, if you put sanctions on and they stop this, as they should, then you won't have the problem. You'll have less of a problem of Israel being a pariah state and violating the rules of international law and and being opposed to everything that the West is is asking for. I sympathize with Jews in Western countries and around the world who are feeling this anti-Semitism, but I don't think it's it's viable, and I don't think it's actually helping them to essentially say, Israel, you can do whatever you want, whatever you want, because any time we criticize Israel or put sanctions on, you're going to cause anti-Semitism. Well, it's just not on. It can't be that way. And in fact, the problem is that we have been doing this, you know, while settlements have grown from 200,000 to 500,000 to 750,000. We've just sort of stood by and done nothing, and now we're coming to crisis. So I think the better the better way is for Jews in the diaspora to jointly condemn these illegal acts and and show the world that we're all opposed to this illegality wherever it occurs. We we we put sanctions on Russia. We put sanctions on Syria in the past. We put sanctions on Iran right now. Israel doesn't get a pass because there are some people that connect what Israel is doing on the ground and then commit acts of anti-Semitism in London.

Maytal Kowalski

Yeah, and you know, and and I mean, I it's I I think so so there's you know there's there's two things that I think are really important there to mention. Like you know I I was I was interviewed on a podcast about settler violence for the Canadian Jewish News a couple months back now, and you know to the question of like, well, what sanctions should come next? I'm like, well, hopefully none. Like, I'm not - I don't think any of us are actively rooting for sanctions. It's not like there's the legacy institutions who don't want sanctions and us who do want sanctions. We want to see Israel take the steps that they need to take to ensure that sanctions are not needed, and you know the the the accountability and the agency really does lie with Israel if they are, and that's why I kind of feel like this Israeli government, and for a lot of reasons. But you know, for a lot of reasons, we see this, and I think with this as well, like to act like the Israeli government cares about anti-Semitism in the diaspora, like come on, they obviously don't. And this is a really good this is a really good point. And like it it kind of makes me sad to see our legacy institutions defending this country. That's basically saying like we don't care about you, we don't care what's happening over there, unless we can use it for our political advance. We don't care about it, and we're standing here defending them. Will they say whatever with you guys because we want to go ahead with this? So, so obviously the answer is like, look, if this is if this is of concern to Israel, then Israel can can stop taking these actions. And you know, and and exactly to your point, they have in the past. We know that e1 is something that has been so controversial that it's been paused multiple, multiple times. The same thing can happen now, and you know, the other thing to note on this, I think, is that I think one of the statements-I can't remember if it was Board of Deputies or who it was-that said they're concerned about these actions that single out Israel. And you just made the point of other countries that are sanctioned. If we look at other countries that are that are undertaking similar moves, such as Russia's attempt to annex large swaths of Ukraine, they're also being sanctioned. So you know this narrative, and I'm curious to hear how you feel about it or if it's evolved. But it seems to me that this idea of Israel being singled out-I don't know if it was ever true-but it's really hard now to look at what's happening in geopolitics and say that say that unfortunately, like Israel is not being singled out. Israel is just now in a category of other nations that we would rather not be a part of.

Jon Allen

Yeah, I mean you said it, and and there's not much more to add to it. Israel has been singled out in the past by receiving more military aid and other aid than any other country in the Middle East, and actually any other country in the world in terms of military assistance from the United States. They've been singled out as being the David in a war of Goliath when they were a David in wars of Goliath in 67 and 73. We're not singling out Israel. We're singling out the most right racist government that has ever governed in Israel and a government that's taking actions that are absolutely illegal, which they deny. They deny that occupation is illegal. They deny that the settlements are illegal, and we see that they are. You know, just like perhaps South Africa denied that what they were doing was apartheid or contrary to international law, so I agree with you. I will say, and we talked about how complicated this is in terms of strategy. You move from what we think is right to strategy, and then the question becomes: Will this be effective? And and you know, on the one hand, you say, well, effective or not, we should be doing this. On the other hand, we are dealing with a government that will ignore the sanctions. It there will be a rally around the flag in Israel. Who Israelis right now? Israelis are concerned. Are beginning to become concerned about the hilltop violence because they know that when you attack NBC reporters and when you are attacking an American Palestinian, that it's hitting the news, and this is bad for Israel's image. They're not unhappy or concerned about the illegality or the immorality of surrounding a house for weeks and weeks and weeks, a house of and a community of of Palestinians, while the IDF and the and the police stand by, that's that's not the problem. But will it have an effect, or will this just get Israelis to come together and you know maybe decide to vote for Bibi Netanyahu rather than the others because he's the one that's going to stand up for Israel. So that's a separate question of of when you do it, will it be effective? Do you send a message now so that the next government, if it's not a Bibi government, says okay, they're prepared to do this, and we better be listening, and that's something that should be on the top of our list to walk back, or or what? So I think governments are trying to figure out when, as we said at the beginning, when's the best time? What should be done? I think we should point out also that these are sanctions that are aimed at the West Bank, at actions in the West Bank which are clearly. Illegal at international law. Israel, as an occupying nation, which they deny, but everybody else says they are, is not allowed to be building anything in this area. Never mind a settlement that is going to perhaps threaten the the idea of two-state solution, so it's we get we get lost in all of this. But this is so blatantly illegal, and all governments are doing is talking about sanctioning the West Bank. They're talking about trying to prevent this from going ahead. They're not even sanctioning Israel proper.

Maytal Kowalski

Yes, yeah, and I think actually that's a really important point to note because this is something that we've also been calling for from our policy center. We've had a petition going for a while to write to MPs to tell them to take these actions, and you know something that something that that we recognize in all of those calls and in any of our policy papers that we've worked on is that these sanctions and what we are targeting is the illegality of what is happening in the West Bank. We are not asking for sanctions on Israel proper, Israel within the green line, any trade. If you're doing business in Israel and you're working, you know, you're doing business with Canada and you're in Israel within the green line, like we support that. We encourage that. We still see ourselves as friends of Israel, and it is because we see ourselves as friends as Israel. That we recognize that what is happening with creeping annexation and occupation of the West Bank, to your earlier point, is the greatest threat to a Jewish, secure, and democratic Israel. So you know, when you talk about strategy, there's also that strategy from the Israeli government and from those who kind of you know echo this this not nuanced pro-Israel right or wrong voice that that attempts to conflate the West Bank with Israel proper, and I think that it is very important for voices like ours and organizations like ours. You know, we don't want to give into that because that's also the Israeli government is trying to do. They're trying to say all of this is Israel, and I think there's also a piece of strategy that says when when sanctions are just on the West Bank, we're also reminding people, and I hope our own community is reminded of this as well, that there are two different areas of land here that we're talking about. There is one that we support and that we see great hopes for the future of, and there is one that we recognize is a massive threat to, as you said, Palestinians and Israelis, and we need to continue to make that separation. I'm glad our politicians continue to make that separation, and I hope that more in our community start to speak about that separation as well.

Jon Allen

But if Bibi Netanyahu and this government were to be reelected, and if they were to go ahead, I I think I can tell you that the world will not be making that distinction because the government of the state of Israel is is the government that is doing this, and yes, you could and should target the West Bank, but at a certain point, I think countries, certainly individuals, are going to be saying enough is enough, and and it it will be the state that will be sanctioned, and academics and university professors and actors and and everybody will be targeted as they are now. Frankly, there are a lot of people that aren't making a distinction when Israeli dance companies and academics being refused to attend conferences, etc.

Maytal Kowalski

Yeah, yeah. Well, which is exactly kind of what we were saying earlier. Like instead of instead of kind of going on the defensive and trying to play catch up and say no, no, no, stop doing these sanctions. You know, the answer should be to say to Israel, stop doing the things that are causing the sanctions, because exactly to your point, it is going to get to that place, and I think that it's going to be any. I think it's going to be really hard for any of us watching with a sober view from the outside to, you know, I don't think we're going to like it, and I don't think that we're going to we're going to be the first to call for it. But it's it's it's not going to be hard to understand why it's happening. And again, you know, I think we should just end on the note that like Israel does have the agency here. If if that is a concern, and if additional sanctions are concerned, and if the blurring of the West Bank and Israel is a concern. Then there's a way to stop it right now, and there is a choice that that the next Israeli government absolutely has to make about whether or not they want to. That that's the choice that they want to make,

Jon Allen

and they cannot keep saying, and Israelis can't keep saying, "Oh, this is all about anti-Israel and anti-Semitism, and using those as a shield. Those-that's an inappropriate shield. It-it-it-it's not true. It's not true, because our governments are not anti-Semitic and they're not anti-Israel. But that is the. That is the shield, and that's where this whole question of whether one follows the the rabbis in the UK and and we do nothing or we we do something but make it clear why we're doing it and and etc.

Maytal Kowalski

Absolutely, yeah. So we'll put I think some when we send this out via email. We'll put some links about some of this E1 stuff in in the email so that folks can read a little bit more. Because as as was probably clear from this conversation, just within E1 alone, there's there's so much complexity there and so much to talk about. I'm headed off to Winnipeg tomorrow, and I don't know if we're going to get a chance to talk before Rosh Hashanah. So I wanted to say to you, Shana Tova.

Jon Allen

Thank you, thank you, and to you too. And may it be a better, much better year. And let's hope that October 27 and November midterms come out the way we want. We didn't even talk about the hilltop settlers and and all of that, but who knows? Who knows? We'll get there. Yeah.

Maytal Kowalski

Unfortunately, as we always say, there's never there's never a lack of what to talk about. So, John, thank you so much for taking the time while you're away and visiting family to have this conversation. Shanatava, if we don't talk before then, and thank you as always for your time. 

Maytal Kowalski

Thanks so much, Jon. Talk to you soon. Bye.

Jon Allen

Bye.